pussinboots: Sketches, and musing on BREAKING the ART RULES

candyland of enforced glee (

pussinboots) wrote,
@ 2007-07-07 02:54:00

Current location:	our library
Current mood:	contemplative
Current music:	This Is A Call - Foofighters
Entry tags:	musings, sketches

Sketches, and musing on BREAKING the ART RULES
These are sketches for a new site layout. I've had the domain for my personal site sitting around for a year and I still haven't used it; when I renew it, I'm going to actually set it up. (Recommendations on cheap, reliable hosting? I don't need back-end frippery, just a place to point my domain and throw up less than a meg of stuff.)

I'm torn about my goals with art. On the one hand, I like comic art, and I like it because it's free and fluid. My favorite comic styles don't pay much attention to reality; straight lines bend and light sources land where it looks neat, not where there are actually lights. There are often intentional anatomy flaws for emphasis or motion, and most of all, it's impossible. I want to draw more like that, like the self-portraits above. I didn't pay attention to whether or not it looked like me, but more that it felt like me. I want all my art to be like that.

On the other hand, I realize my favorite artists probably studied the rules longer before they started breaking them. Since I haven't any formal training, not even so much as a high school level Drawing 101, I'm sorely lacking in some of the knowledge that I should have before I start taking a crowbar to physics. I don't know how to do correct lighting, or human anatomy, or realistic perspective.

Have you dealt with this? Thoughts? (And don't tell me to cough up $60,000 for art school, assfish. :D)

(Post a new comment)

reicreature
2007-07-07 11:37 am UTC (link)

I'm really surprised that you don't have any formal art experience.
You seem to have a great deal of skill and good use of technique. Art classes are great for getting down different techniques and learning new ways of interpretting the things you see or think about and put them down on the page (or render them in clay or whatever)
I had an art teacher who told me that the best way to learn about how to make art is to hang out with other artists and pretty much watch what they do (something that I heard fenmere echo a few days ago)
There are a shit load of books on technique out there and little on the side type of classes that instruct people in different mediums and they aren't always that expensive.
Maybe fire off a few e-mails to your favorite artists and ask them questions? Most people are pretty nice about discussing their trade if you aren't an ass about it.

Where do you feel that you are the weakest in your drawing? What sort of things to you shy away from the most?
That's probably where you need to study methods a little more.
In general though you're a very excellent artist and one that I'm shocked to learn has less formal training then I do (which is probably the reason your stuff is so original and interesting to look at)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

pussinboots
2007-07-07 06:25 pm UTC (link)

Aw, thank you! ^_^

I agree about hanging out with artists being the best way to learn--I've learned more from the B.S. than I possibly could have learned on my own from books. Even though they're useful as reference, I find them difficult as a learning tool. (Any time I'm learning to DO something instead of REMEMBER something, it's difficult to learn from a book. Except programming, but I feel like that's still pretty different.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

renatus
2007-07-07 11:42 am UTC (link)

I'm dealing with the same issue right now. Last January I looked at my actual skill level compared to what I wanted to do and realized that there were too many holes in my knowledge for me to be comfortable plowing blindly onward.

Because of time, money, and my personal priorities, art school isn't an option for me, either. I tried looking for online tutorials--not the "How to draw anime eyes just like I do!" type, but the actual from the ground up sorts. I'm afraid I didn't get very far, and what I did find was frustrating in its limited scope, even though I was willing to start from the very beginning, as if I knew nothing.

Six months later, I've started to come to the conclusion that, for myself at least, the only viable solution right now is endless observation and practice. Boring shit like staring at my kitchen table and figuring out how the lines join up and why the light looks like it does and where it hits and how it shades. Same with people. Not letting myself draw ANYTHING without a reference if I can possibly help it, not letting myself not plan out things until I've got a solid foundation. Basically, not letting myself guess and assume until I've actually trained my eye.

Not that it has gotten me very far--I'm usually thinking about writing and that takes up a lot of my creative power, especially with it currently at an ebb.

Now for something actually useful--TK Labus once, a million years ago, prodded me to look at a site that had Andrew Loomis's "Figure Drawing For All It's Worth" up page by page. I was stupid and didn't look until it had vanished, but it's popped up again--all of his books, actually, in pdf format. Normally I wouldn't suggest what amounts to pirating for books, but for three reasons--he's dead, his estate refuses to reprint them, and they're close to impossible to find used. So, there you are. Every artist I've seen talking about these books has had nothing but positive things to say about how they helped their human anatomy skills.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

pussinboots
2007-07-07 06:19 pm UTC (link)

Very wise! I have this feeling, when I'm practicing, that I'm missing something important because my attempts are so horrible.

Do you feel like you're making progress with it? I want to believe that just practicing will help, because I know it did when I was just starting, but I'm afraid I'll spend years just making the same mistakes over and over. Right now, that's what it feels like, but maybe I'll have a breakthrough...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

renatus, 2007-07-08 09:28 pm UTC

Oh, hi, essay lenght comment!

reallyreally
2007-07-07 11:55 am UTC (link)

I do have some formal training (I was in the arts programme at Highschool, which meant that like, half our classes were art and/or art related (art history etc), and I've taken art courses outside of school to (the most valuable one being a one-night-a-week perspective class. Definitely worth those $170) and done quite a bit of life-drawing) and while I do know how to use the rules, I am not as good at breaking them :P Haha.

But the one thing I know is that after studying like, the human body and perspective and working everything out properly with guide lines etc, by now I can quite easily draw a room, or a person without rulers and counting centimetres and stuff. That's where training has helped me - first it made everything harder and then it made stuff so much easier. I don't think you need like, formal training to do that, though, the important part is practice and a few rules, but I do think that learning those basic things makes everything easier in the long run. If that even makes sense aaaah, to much talking to little substance!

Also, I definitely think you manages to do what you wanted in the self-portraits, I was sure it was you right away, but I also noticed that it didn't look the same as you usually draw yourself.

I really wish I could do simpler, more cartoony stuff. That's where I find it hard to break the rules, because I always end up overworking things which are supposed to be simple.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Oh, hi, essay lenght comment!

pussinboots
2007-07-07 06:20 pm UTC (link)

I have trouble letting go of reality, too. Part of it is my lack of confidence that I know What Reality Is, so I'm afraid to mess with it, but I also just get so caught up in details that I forget to stylize things the way I appreciate in others' art.

Thanks for the advice, Mikey ^_^ I think I might at least take a perspective course, because I know in that regard there are lots of tips and tricks that I probably don't know and could easily put to use.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	Bill will!! cherrycrusrgirl 2007-07-07 04:50 pm UTC (link)
	For free.He would reply but he is out front pasting the deck,no soul selling required,interested? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Bill will!! pussinboots 2007-07-07 06:10 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah! Bill is competent. Thank you ^_^ (Reply to this) (Parent)

	machinery 2007-07-07 05:49 pm UTC (link)
	See if you can audit an art class somewhere . . . Or save up for an extra special one? I spent a fortune ($300) to take this portraiture class last year, but by the end of it, I could knock out gorgeous perfect portraits from photos and life. So it was worth it. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	pussinboots 2007-07-07 06:21 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you! I'm always afraid of art classes because I see what some people's products look like afterward, haha. However, I trust that you know the difference between it being worth it and not, so I'll definitely consider saving up for one. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

machinery, 2007-07-07 09:43 pm UTC

(no subject) -

pussinboots, 2007-07-08 11:47 am UTC

	harriet_m_welsh 2007-07-07 06:03 pm UTC (link)
	I really enjoy your art the way it is. But maybe it would satisfy your niggle to just take a drawing class at WCC. I bet that 99.99999% of the concepts will come as second nature to you, but it can't hurt to experiment with a different style. Hell, I'm thinking about going to WCC myself! if I don't chicken out, that is (Reply to this) (Thread)

pussinboots
2007-07-07 06:23 pm UTC (link)

I think it'll still look like my art, it'll just look better. I like my art from four or five years ago, but even though it has some of the same elements I like now, it's missing some, too.

My father has forbidden me from going there again, because their administration runs on dog poop and lost paperwork, but who knows... Perhaps I should just find a really good artist in Bellingham and drink their brains.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

harriet_m_welsh, 2007-07-07 06:43 pm UTC

(no subject) -

pussinboots, 2007-07-08 11:48 am UTC

the_xaotician
2007-07-07 06:29 pm UTC (link)

I have only two recommendations, really, both of which you might already know of.

One is a book by Jack Hamm called How to Draw the Figure from Head to Toe, and it is made of win. The other is this thing. In terms of lighting, you might learn a lot from looking at a "how-to" book about photography... I'm pretty sure that I learned everything I know about lighting (especially on faces) when I took that in school.

On an unrelated note, did you get my email, buttersquid?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	pussinboots 2007-07-08 08:31 pm UTC (link)
	I DID get your e-mail! And reminded me I need to read more of your stories, since I don't know who Mouse is. Those sound good. I'm actually going to go draw right now, so hopefully I can make something non-retarded. And thanks for the recommendations! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

the_xaotician, 2007-07-09 06:23 pm UTC

whydah
2007-07-07 07:16 pm UTC (link)

I learned how to draw from Disney model sheets, How to Draw Comics The Marvel Way and the old animé tutorials that used to be up on polykarbon.com - I suck at perspective, my life drawing is a joke and god help me if I try and draw a table XD

I did however scrape my way into art school and as someone who does 2.5 hrs of life drawing a week and is assessed on it, it has never gotten easier for me. The frustration, hatred and depression is always there, I always end up ready to pack it in -- but when I look back over 2 yrs of sketch books there is marked improvement.

Sadly it never gets easier, haha, but the work gets better XD I have accepted that the frustration and pain is part of the effort now, I guess -- when I am ready to throw my pencil at the model and shout "KILLFIRE!!!" this is often forgotten...

I am using books on the art of storyboarding and layout for animation to learn perspective -- they have exact breakdowns and notes on points of perspective, how to use a grid, etc and put your characters in so it matches, so even for non-animators I'd say it's useful. Also some notes on lighting and how it might be manipulated for mood -- one of them is Don Bluth's the art of storyboarding and layout, and... the other escapes me at the moment, but I'll think of it XD

(Reply to this) (Thread)

pussinboots
2007-07-08 08:32 pm UTC (link)

Thank you! The storyboarding book is an idea I'd never thought of before. Maybe I'll start doing some certain number of life drawing hours per week too. Even if I don't grade myself, I have you guys ;)

And I'm glad to know it's painful even if you're getting better. That makes me more inclined to do it. I was just worried I was trying to push my way through a brick wall, so that helps.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	You Certainly Don't Need Art School patlandness 2007-07-07 09:26 pm UTC (link)
	I have art books I can lend you (surprise, surprise), but for classes, Jeeeezus. The detail. The fucking DETAIL of your work is exquisite. Your problems are quite small if any when it comes to your work. Indeed, you could probably teach art and Dialectical Behavioral Therapy if you wanted to. asskiss mode off (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: You Certainly Don't Need Art School pussinboots 2007-07-08 08:33 pm UTC (link)
	Haha! Thank you, Pat. I couldn't teach anything because I'm really poor at conveying information. (And I want to be a WRITER?!) But thanks for the vote of confidence! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	awritersweekend 2007-07-07 10:42 pm UTC (link)
	I get cheap hosting from GoDaddy.com PS I'm not an expert on art, but I know what I like...:) You have a real talent. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	pussinboots 2007-07-08 08:34 pm UTC (link)
	Aw, thanks! And I have a friend who works there. I should have thought of asking her. (Reply to this) (Parent)

johannakatt
2007-07-07 10:52 pm UTC (link)

This is a lame and obvious suggestion, but I find that the most helpful thing when it comes to drawing and stuff is to draw a lot from actual models and actual environments for practise. It really gives an understanding of how things actually look. I need to do this a lot more myself, I just never get around to it. I really need to get a sketch book and then actually use it!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	pussinboots 2007-07-08 08:37 pm UTC (link)
	It's obvious, but it's not lame. As I read the suggestions, I think about how much I would like my art to resemble or grow from the person's art or style. I'm very influenced by your art, so it's important to me to know what you think is important. (Did that make any sense?) Anyway, thank you! (Reply to this) (Parent)

addelle
2007-07-07 10:54 pm UTC (link)

This used to be a tough call for me when I was a snobby art fag. I used tot think that everyone MUST learn the rules before they are ALLOWED to break them...

But then I look at my own artistic insecurity and I feel it is fully rooted in my formal education. I have good skills, I know perspective, and anatomy and all that crap. I can draw an accurate portrait or a still life --

But I am always insecure about my work, I want SO MUCH to be looser, more cartoony, confident in my deviations from reality. I want to have more fun and wory less about depicting effectivly -- I want to communicate more.

You have a great talent to communicate in ways I don't, which is what I admire about you, you can draw a bloated catfish, a bee geisha, or an elven prince... and all of your styles are convincing and all of them are very wonderfully *you*

Fuck art school, I've had to teach myself everything that I have wanted to learn (except formal drawing which I got better from community college then I did University). All of the really specific stuff, how to actually pace/draw/write for COMICS I had to get books from the library anyway.

If anything, take a drawing class at WCC, but you are rich with freedom from acedemic bullshit... they will try to put you in a box, babe.

:-)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	pussinboots 2007-07-08 08:44 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you, Addelle. You've actually taught me more just from drawing with me than I think most classes ever could, simply because I find your art interesting and am specifically interested in how you make it. I sometimes doubt I could give an academic setting the same kind of attention. As far as expressive communicative comicbooks go... I'll race you. >:) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

addelle, 2007-07-08 09:51 pm UTC

	linax 2007-07-07 11:26 pm UTC (link)
	urm this is sort of random I'm sure but I just wanted to voice my thoughts on your costume/clothing design in the second sketch. Wowza, just yeah....its very solid and intricate, but not gaudy or over-done. So yeah, I like it. I run away now. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	pussinboots 2007-07-08 11:49 am UTC (link)
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^____________^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You get the mutant supersmiley because I really appreciate compliments from someone who draws exactly the way I was describing that I want to. :D (Reply to this) (Parent)

danielbdemented
2007-07-07 11:27 pm UTC (link)

I've never really had any official drawing classes, (well, up until a few months ago) everything I've done has been natural talent and self-taught. Not to sound arrogant, but whenever I was in an drawing class in high school or anywhere else, they were trying to teach me everything I already knew how to do.

Everything I know about anatomy and lighting I learned from constant practice and observation of what's around me.
That's what I think is the best way to learn. Of course, this is probably something you already do, but it's just what I did to learn.

In terms of facial anatomy, a really good investment is one of those double-sided vanity mirrors. The flip over ones with the 5x magnification on one of the sides.

By the way, you did a fantastic job on the clothing in the second drawing.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

pussinboots
2007-07-08 08:46 pm UTC (link)

Thank you! I totally wish I owned that outfit. >:| I would never take it off.

Well, you're amazing, so I believe you ;) I'm probably just really impatient. The mirror is a good suggestion--I used to have one of those mirrors and I used to use it all the time, and now I don't know where it's got to, but I noticed my facial detailing has slipped between then and now.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

danielbdemented, 2007-07-09 04:10 am UTC

kaerfel
2007-07-08 04:32 am UTC (link)

On the one hand, I like comic art, and I like it because it's free and fluid. My favorite comic styles don't pay much attention to reality; straight lines bend and light sources land where it looks neat, not where there are actually lights. There are often intentional anatomy flaws for emphasis or motion, and most of all, it's impossible. I want to draw more like that, like the self-portraits above. I didn't pay attention to whether or not it looked like me, but more that it felt like me. I want all my art to be like that.

Hahaha--you want to be ME. ^_~ Just kidding. (But if you want, I will teach you how I draw!)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	kaerfel 2007-07-08 04:33 am UTC (link)
	P.S. Dreamhost is good for hosting, though I don't know if it's what you're looking for, since they give you a lot of space. (They're like the gmail of web hosting.) (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) -

pussinboots, 2007-07-08 08:46 pm UTC

jagermeister317
2007-07-08 05:14 am UTC (link)

After looking at both those drawings, I must demand that you draw my tattoo design of a pirate ship being attacked by a giant octopus. You told me you don't feel confident drawing it, yet I see a fabulous ship and a great octopus.

I plan to start my sleeve pieces sometime soon, and that is one of the first 3 pieces that will get done. So if you ever have time and get the urge...PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE consider trying!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	jagermeister317 2007-07-08 05:17 am UTC (link)
	Also, I recommend 1and1.com for hosting and domain needs. I got a great rate for everything back when I still had a site. Hopefully, they still offer everything they used to. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) -

pussinboots, 2007-07-08 08:48 pm UTC

(no subject) -

jagermeister317, 2007-07-09 12:32 am UTC

redtidegirl
2007-07-08 05:57 pm UTC (link)

You have a lot of questions for yourself, and that's a great thing.

Just don't forget what you love about art, and what you love to do. Some of the most talented people in the world, many of whom have had a huge impact on things, have NO formal training whatsoever.

San, you're an extremely talented person and you are recognized as such by friends and fans alike. Enjoy that and know that you're supported even if you feel like you don't have the training you should have, etc.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	pussinboots 2007-07-08 08:49 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you, Jess! I always forget all the famous people who didn't get trained... (Reply to this) (Parent)

magdaleneveen
2007-07-20 11:01 pm UTC (link)

I like to think I'm pretty handy with the ol' anatomy. The thing that helped me most, besides very early childhood training by dad, was lots of practice drawing complete human skeletons. Since all earth animals are basically the same design with different warping and occasional missing or extra parts, once you learn the basic human skeleton, you can build anything from the inside-out. Learning this and really understanding it physically, through lots of boring and repetitious skeleton drawing, was a huge deal for me.

I would love to start a collective life drawing meetup but all my artist friends live in different cities. Maybe you could branch off from BS of Comics for something like that. Invite my dad in as an instructor one night, he's a great art teacher.

And then after you're pretty good with skeletons, you move on to naked art models. I'm a big proponent of classical drawing education, but I am not in favor of "art school", as it were.

I am going to stress that I think it's really important to do this drawing in person, while looking at the actual 3-d, real-life thing that you're trying to get down. Drawing from photographs (or other drawings) will flatten out your perceptions and can screw you up unless you've got the life drawing stuff down, first.

If you come visit me you can draw me naked.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	magdaleneveen 2007-07-20 11:04 pm UTC (link)
	I'm serious about "complete", too. I want to see tarsals. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

magdaleneveen, 2007-07-20 11:05 pm UTC

(no subject) -

magdaleneveen, 2007-07-20 11:09 pm UTC

(no subject) -

martygreene, 2007-07-21 12:16 am UTC

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